About Bible

[Danyet]

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?

He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.

Make no mistake: The christian god Yahwey would not condemn any poor person to eternal torture by fire.

This is one of the worst catholic lies perpetrated on the masses and is an afront to the character of the creator himself!

Come on people, use your brain here! Would a god who loves us enough to devise a plan to redeem the entire world back to him actually torture those people who fall short, by burning them alive in a firey furnace but not allow them to even die to escape the pain?
Now if I thought God would actually do that I would join forces with Satan, wouldn't
you?
And, I have to wonder, how many people have joined forces with Satan because of this lie!!!

[jeffcox]

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.

I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

He wants his cake and eat it! He wants everything and nothing less than that. He wants you to praise him and worship him and thank him for everything because he is God.

"Do what I say and thank me for it." is what God says... just like an army general who expects his soldiers to obey his every order with blind obedience. A soldier with less experience has no right to question a superior's order, imagine such insolence!

Is this what you're trying, so politely, to say?

[MissLT]

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus?

He would not necessariy be excluded from heaven. The actual truth about this is clouded. Many christians even preachers do not understand the scriptures.

You know I've asked my cousins and Catholics I know this same question, and they have been having a hard time to answer me.

Many christians do not believe in a place called hell either. Hell is simply a metaphor for not receiving immortallity. Also, the physical place called hell is an invention of the pagan Greeks and adopted into christian beliefs through the corrupted Catholic church of Rome.

My cousin said hell in Christianity is not a hot, burning place, where devils have big pot of oil and they would throw you it it, or any horrid descriptions people have to scare kids. She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

[MissLT]

I understand your argument.

I think it's like this:
Simply being good isn't enough for God.
Recognizing God isn't enough for God.

Well, it's more of simply being good isn't enough for God. Because if you acknowledge Jesus means you've obeyed him or so to say; therefore, you'll be saved. However, if you go against the teaching. You'll be damned. Being a nice, non-Christian, on the other hand, is different. It doesn't matter! You'll be damned anyway despite how good you are on earth. As I see God won't judge you, a nice non-Christian, for you'll be ended up in hell.

[Danyet]

So She said hell is a place where there is no day or night, and where you would remorse for what you did on earth. Right?

Well, that is what some people say but they have to be completely wrong!

You see, the Bible states that humans were created a little "lower" than the angels. Angels are Immortal whereas humans are Mortal.
Humans receive immortallity only at the time of the great resurection at the end of the age. Eclesiastes tells us that "The dead know knothing. They have no rememberance of former times and no interaction with the living." "They sleep" "return to dust".

If this is true then they can not be in a hell or purgatory (which is another pagan/catholic idea, not Biblical).

[MissLT]

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?

[Arale]

I was very curious about The Sangreal in The Da Vinci Code. As every document used in that book is true, and so is The Sangreal. This's what I found on the internet. Is really there something hidden behind the Bible?

_Arale_

[MissLT]

What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code.

[Arale]

What's your email, Arale? I'll forward you what my cousin sent to me about the Da Vinci Code.

I'm waiting for it! Thanks!

[Danyet]

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?

No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!

[Shazzam]

But Adam and Eve were like angels, immortal, until they ate the forbidden food.... :?

No. They only ate the fruit from the tree of knowlege of good and evil. It was the tree of life that was to give them immortallity. After they had eaten the forbidden fruit of the tree of knowlege of good and evil God prevented them from from gaining access to the tree of life and thereby obtaining immortallity. God could not have any more corrupted creatures with immortality!!!

Is it written anywhere in the bible what the fruit was that was on the tree of life? Just curious. I know that they were tempted by the serpent to eat the apple etc but I didn't know about the tree of life.

[Danyet]

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.

[Shazzam]

Again the answer is "No". The name of the fruit is not mentioned.

The fruit form the tree that Adam and Eve ate is not mentioned by name either.
I think it was Renaissance art that gave us the myth of the apple.

SORRY!! I didn't read the whole thread so obviously you have answered this before.

Thanks for the information anyway.

[Lalee]

He's well-known even to the non-Christians because of the teaching give the other cheek to your enemy, so both of your cheeks would be evenly slapped. It carries many hidden messages in that story. Being tolerant even to the ignorants, peace within thou, calm, forgiveness, etc. You don't get all that from a not nice person or a Christian who doesn't understand his teaching.

So you don't understand why a good person has to understand Jesus's teaching to get saved?
Let me copy the verse that you are referring to.
Matthew 5, 38
Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.
And if any man will sue thee at the law, and take away thy coat, let him have thy cloak also.
And whosoever shall compel thee to go a mile, go with him twain.
Give to him that asketh thee, and from him that would borrow of thee turn not thou away.
Through those verses we can see that Jesus is telling us to be good and stand others even if they treat us bad. Now, are we able to do that naturally? No. Most people have a negative reaction. If someone hits them, they will just hit them back.
Jesus wanted people to realize that they were not able to keep the Law, that through Moses' Law they wouldn't be able to get saved but through Him.

Mark 10, 17
And when he was gone forth into the way, there came one running, and kneeled to him, and asked him, Good Master, what shall I do that I may inherit eternal life?
And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.
Thou knowest the commandments, Do not commit adultery, Do not kill, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Defraud not, Honour thy father and mother.
And he answered and said unto him, Master, all these have I observed from my youth.
Then Jesus beholding him loved him, and said unto him, One thing thou lackest: go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come, take up the cross, and follow me. And he was sad at that saying, and went away grieved: for he had great possessions.
And Jesus looked round about, and saith unto his disciples, How hardly shall they that have riches enter into the kingdom of God!

According to that person, he was following the commandments well but in his heart he knew he was lacking of something that's why he came up to Jesus and asked him what he needed to do to inherit eternal life. When Jesus asked him to do a nice thing for the poor, he was not able to do it and just left. Through him, we can see that people are not able to follow all the commandments perfectly and God knows it.
This goes for the people who are under the Law: Galatians 3, 10
For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them.

Being nice and being Christian goes hand in hand. You're understood to be nice if you understand his teaching. It's a given; no question asked here. However, if you're a nice person, you're required to understand his teaching to be saved. Hence, this part I don't get.

I hope my explanation above made this clear.

Why not? Going to heaven is not a reward to me. It's what you deserve. And if you live your life without shame, remorse, regret or anything, why don't you deserve to go to heaven?

If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.

I don't agree with this. If he judged you for who you were, then less people would be allowed to heaven. Christians said Christians would be saved if they asked for forgiveness and acknowledged Jesus despite what they did. That's why I've seen people go to Church every week to confess. And what do you know, the next day they've committed the same sin.

I made a mistake in my sentence, "God doesn't judge you for who you are. If He did that, I think anyone would be able to enter heaven."
Replace the "anyone" for "no one". Better now? Sorry, my bad.
As for asking forgiveness over and over again. Those people don't believe in Jesus' death truly.
If God tells them that their sins have been forgotten and washed away.. Then why do they have to ask for forgiveness again?
Hebrews 10, 17
And their sins and iniquities will I remember no more. Now where remission of these is, there is no more offering for sin.
Now that doesn't mean that you can sin as much as you want. We're weak and most likely to commit sins and that's natural but if we're led by the Holy Spirit, our lives can be changed.
God asks us to live spiritual life not focusing on us or how weak we are but on his Word and the Gospel.
God wants people to receive Jesus' sacrifice and His word through faith.

So my question again, why would a nice and non-Christian go to hell because he didnt' acknowledge Jesus? And why would a less nice Christian go to heaven because he acknowledged Jesus? I thought Jesus died for our sins. Doesn't that mean he died for ignorants who didn't acknowledge him, if this is a sin? How come it's still a sin if people don't acknowledge Jesus? :?

Your question makes sense and it's logical. However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.
It's like first someone had a black heart full of sin then when he accepts Jesus' death by faith, his heart is covered with Jesus' blood so God can't see sin anymore in there. So such person is called righteous before God's eyes.

Yes, you may do that. But the problem is people don't even know how wise or powerful God really is. The Bible was written by men. How sure are you to say that they indeed didn't change a bit to suit themselves?

Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.
There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

[jeffcox]

...However, to God people who die without acknowledging Jesus as their saviour can't enter heaven. Yeah, Jesus also died for those ignorants who never accepted Him but God accepts those who know they need Jesus to present themselves before God.
God only thinks Jesus deserves to go to heaven now if Jesus advocates for people who believe in Him, then God allows such person to enter.

In other words, the fact that we have to recognize Jesus is a capriche, a fancy of his.

I mean, if we do good all our lives, we're damned if we don't recognize Jesus. If God wants us to be good and follow His word, then that should logically be enough for a place in heaven. But no, that's not enough for Him, we have to recognize Him, through Jesus. So egoistic of Him, who Himself claims to be a jealous God... aren't those human flaws and therefore God has no right to judge us.


There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

People choose which scriptures they like to follow and how. Plus, the interpretation of the Bible changes with every generation. People burned witches based on scripture from the Bible.

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

[MissLT]

If we deserved to go there, Jesus would've never came and died. Why would God have sent him if He had known that we could enter there by ourselves without any help?
It seems that God doesn't think people deserve it.

But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

[MissLT]

Yeah, it was written by men but all the messages and thoughts in there are God's.
It's like an illiterate persone comes to you and asks you to write down a letter for her so she dictates and you just write down all she tells you.
As for men changing it, I don't think God would allow something like that to happen.

If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

There is no book that can tell us about God but the Bible so if the Bible weren't God's word, how would He reveal himself? It's the key He has for people to know Him and believe in Him.

Since the dawn of life humans have already been believing in something. We're spiritual species. We're too fragile to deal with this cruel world. And especially when we understand life and death life is even harder. For example, when our loved ones get hurt or are about to pass away or other problems, we'll pray to something more powerful than us just in hope that there would be a miracle.

Imagine if someone understood all this and used it on you to persuade you to believe him/her? Would you believe his/her ~ when you were desperate? I believe there'd be a big chance that you would. I never deny men who wrote the Bible were not intelligent. In fact, they were too brilliant and perspicacious to envisage what people fear and want most.

[MissLT]

As an example:
Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

There's one part in the New Testtament that is similar to this one (I can't remember it now. I'll look for it again). I read and I found it quite absurd. I pointed it to my bf and asked, "and you believe in this book?" He just rolled his eyes.

[jeffcox]

Oh, there's more!

1 Corinthians 11:8-9
"For the man is not of the woman: but the woman of the man. Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man."

There are even more such citations of sexism agains women in the Bible.

Like I said, people choose the parts they want to believe. For this, there is no Christianism if everybody has their own dogma.

[MissLT]

This, I have to say, happens in every religion. In Buddhism, before women were considered as people who couldn't be enlightened at all. There was no way for women to become a Buddha. I did not know it until my mom told me about this. That was when I decided to give religions a bit of a reading.

[jeffcox]

Yeah, and for this reason I frown at anyone who says the Bible is the word of God. Those words are so elusive and their meaning is so fickle. :?

[Lalee]

But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you?
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

[Lalee]

Hmm... I have never met anyone who believes in everything in the Bible, as it is written in the Bible. Not one person! But then, I've never met the Pope!

I don't think the Pope believes in all what the Bible says.

Genesis 3:16
"Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee."

Personally, I find this idea outrageous and can't understand how a woman would agree to this. We are to follow this scripture and believe that women should be subservient to men?

I know what you mean but again people can't understand God fully or what He does.
As I said before, I think it's better to be His ally rather than His enemy.

[MissLT]

But I believe there are people who could go to heaven without acknowledging Jesus as a savior, though. What about Buddhist monks, rabis, or other members of any monastic orders beside Christians? Where would they go, heaven or hell? :?

You're still asking the same question after I gave you all that info?? What's wrong with you?
According to the Bible, yeah those people are not allowed to heaven. It doesn't matter if it's a monk or the president or a rabi etc.
I know you don't believe it but that's how it is.

And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed?

[Lalee]

If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

[Lalee]

And that's why I was asking you, how sure are you to say that the Bible hasn't been changed?

I think I told you why I am sure of that in one of my previous posts.
Too bad I can't prove to you that the Bible hasn't been changed. :(

[MissLT]

If you had no faith that those people would do anything good in the first place, would you trust them to do something for you? And if you had no one else to do it beside them, how sure could you say they wouldn't change a thing?

As far as I know, all the books in the Bible were written by people of God like the apostles and the prophets among others. Although they were regular men, their lives were led by God. They were God-fearing men.

Bible translations

As Hebrew and Greek, the original languages of the bible, have idioms and concepts not easily translated, there is an on going critical tension about whether it is better to give a word for word translation or to give a translation that gives a parallel idiom in the target language. For instance in the English language Protestant translations of the Christian bible, translations like the New Revised Standard Version and the New American Standard Version are seen as more "word for word" translations, whereas translations like the New International Version and New Living Version attempt to give relevant parallel idioms. The Living Bible and The Message are two paraphrases of the bible that try to convey the original meaning in contemporary language. The further away one gets from word to word translation, the text becomes more readable while relying more on the theological understanding of the translator. Further, both Hebrew and Greek, like some of the latin languages, use the male gender of nouns and pronouns to refer to groups that contain both sexes. This creates some difficulty in determining whether a noun should be translated using terms that refer to men only, or men and women inclusively. Some translations avoid the issue by directly translating the word using male only terminology, whereas others try to use inclusive language where the translators believe it to be appropriate. One translation that attempts to use inclusive language is the New Revised Standard Version.

As you said, humans can do no good. That's why we need to acknowledge Jesus to be saved. If we were born with sins and can't get rid of them, changing something in the Bible wouldn't make a big deal, right? It's a part of our already-born-with sins. Therefore, we'd get the chance to ask for forgiveness at the end, anyway. Right?

I think it would make a big deal. Ask for forgiveness at the end? When at the end?

When is the end to you?

[jeffcox]

It has been recognized by most Bible scholars that the old testament was made up of various scrollsand before those scrolls existed, the stories were passed on by mouth, undergoing modifications through the generations and different regions.

When the scrolls were being written, the different pieces of the same story were 'patched together' into what, at that time, seemed the most logical story.

Then, when canonizing the old testament, somebody chose which scrolls were the best ones to go in - like the modern-day Harry Potter, I choose book one and book 3 - thus, undergoing more changes.

There was then one more modification when everything was translated into English.

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

[Lalee]

When is the end to you?

Well there's no end to me. Although when we die on this earth, it's "the end" like a human being.

[Lalee]

So, three modifications at least!
And after all those modifications, who says it's the Word of God?

Well I still think that the Bible is the word of God.

I really love the way that if it makes sense in the Bible, use it... if it doesn't, then it's God being more intelligent than us so we should accept it anyway, so use it. Why can't a Christian simply say, I don't understand it?

There are some things that I'm sure Christians do not agree with what the Bible says. Let's take the verse you mentioned about women being subservient to men as an example. Most women might think that God is unfair but, can they change what it says there?
The only thing they can do is quitting church.
Some people see God as an unfair being but in the Bible says He's a just God but then again you don't trust in the Bible so...

Because if they can't understand it, they cannot follow the teachings of Jesus and go to heaven. Therefore, they have to 'understand it'... because they're damned if they don't.

Jeff, from the way you write and express yourself about God I can tell you kind of despise Him. I do not know what your beliefs are but I'm sure when you were in hardships you've praid to God. So it doesn't matter the way you think of Him, you can't deny the fact that you need Him.
People can complain all the want about God but nothing will change.